Thoughts: Development of "Footmen vs Grunts"

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wTc.Halolo wTc.Halolo
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Thoughts: Development of "Footmen vs Grunts"

Hello members, hi compit,

in the following sentences I want to state my point of view on the modern FvG-games, typical tactics and behaviors and the lack of "fun".

About me

I play FvG for atleast 5-6 years now, know the "old" ones with the canon boats, 2(3?)tower at the shipyard, taverns in the middle of the map etc. etc.

Since I play the FvG Maps made by you (us) there have been some major changes that on the one hand improved gaming experience (e.g. new heroes, 5k+ items, snap goblins, advanced options such as camera adjustments etc.) but on the other hand led to ways of gaming that i.m.o. haven't anything to do to with the "feeling" that FvG should represent.

"Load-Codes" and "Naga" - downward spiral

Things were gettin worse when the whole "save/load"-codes were introduced in combination with the implementation of the naga-race. Slowly but surely the mapper(s) noticed that nagas were imba, made them cost (more) wood and that ppl played like 24/7 just to get up to 300? gold (which also made the game even more imbalanced yet from the very beginning of the game). Ppl somehow abused or even hacked the bot to benefit from more units/more gold/whatever.

Losing the FvG-Feeling: "Whats it actually all about?" - FvG nowadays

The 'modern' FvG is known for being packed with a bunch of opportunities, referring to game modes, item- and hero-combinations. Nevertheless a few strategies have been established (you can count them on the fingers of your hands) that make me questioning if this is the "real" purpose of how FvG should be played nowadays. I mean FvG has become a heavily macro and micro based game paired with the -most important- right decision-making in terms of "what units/hero can counter strategy X best?", so that it's a) hard to get into the game as a newbie and b) to enjoy the complexity (and variety) that the game has to offer (= cuz you cant even experience since it's always the same).

In my opinion FvG nowadays lacks "fun" - the actual reason why I play such games in my free time. Of course: Whenever you're becoming "good" in a game you somehow 'scent the air' of a more competitive way of gaming (~ "pro-gmaing") but imo one shall not the most vital part of such games => fun

Again and again: The most common "tactics" used nowadays

• Potm/Harpy/Razor Mane Doctor + range such as archer, hippogrpyh, glaive thrower etc. [@Alliance]
• Skeleton Mage/Centaur Archer + "" [@Alliance and Horde]
• "Mass summons" ~> Summoner-Hero, Dark Ranger, Firelord, Archmage, etc.
• "Charming" heroes such as "dark ranger" -> ability to overtake units (Ultimate "Charme") + Couatl-Abuse (= overtake up to 6 Couatls + the X% chance to get the rebirth-rune to have 6+ 92-100dmg-couatls) [@Alliance and Horde]
• "Thrall"-Hero + grunts/orcish melee [@Horde]
• Dragonspawner + X [@Alliance and Horde]
• Lizard/Sludge Finger + X [@Alliance and Horde]

URGENT: bugs, abuses, things that are just imbalanced

• "Messenger of the Death" (Check pic) can use his "death pact" ability even when swapped to Alliance. So it's possible to "sacrifise" enemy units, heal up and even getting money from it. If you're clever you can even kill an abomination and get 80?+ gold from it.
• Dragon Spawner (Check pick): The 1/2/3 dragons that are spawned as his ultimate ability is way too good with his frost nova. Especially crowded archers can be (too) easily killed by 2x nova [1x hero itself + 1x ultimate]
• ppl gettin swapped - bloodlust/inner fire/war drums/bear-roar/etc. -ability: If someone switches from alliance to horde (<->) the race-specific spells can still be used. So Alliance can have inner fire, bear-roar and blood lust at once
• as mentioned above one tactic is to use "charme" on naga couatls from the creeps to not just get 6+ couatls throughout the ultimate-ability but also even more through the "Rune of Rebirth". So if you're (un-)lucky you'll have to face 10 couatls that can attack 3?4? units at once with an attack of 92-100 damage
• Goblin Sapper: commonly used when destroying (upgraded) towers yes, but if your tower is not upgraded you can lose your tower to 2?3? sapper. Imo this should be fixed (since they also cost just 100w)
• Anti Magic Potion: When you decide to go potm/sludge finger it's a vital part to have a anti magic potion with you when hitting lvl 6. You so can cast "starfall" without getting stunned/disabled by a spell (yes it's still doable via "bash"/"ensnare"/etc.). i m b a
• "Shapeshifter" (Acoloyte-Hero): Question - is it really intended that you can (also) cast ultimate-abilitys from a 'stolen' hero (such as starfall, death finger, burning sky, etc.)?
• "Final Hope": is a great and useful feature since units at later waves are just insanely strong (mentioned to be so?), but you can also kill enemy heroes with that. I'm refering to a game where I had a lvl 30? furion and my mate an archimonde at lvl 42. We lost the game because our heroes died and the enemy all-in -ed
____________

My posting should NOT be some kind of "whining/hating" or so but I really miss the good old times of playing some kind of "unburdened" and have FUN.

What are your thoughts?

P.S.: Am I the only one thinking that those koreans (no personal offense) are just BEASTS?!


Greetings
Halolo
// greetings, Halolo

Germany || CET || Playing FvG || Member since 2012
wTc[JediMaster] wTc[JediMaster]
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Re: Thoughts: Development of "Footmen vs Grunts"

Well you know me i have played fvg from time to time and i've followed it not so closely as you tho.
Was there when compit made/stated the -load points thing in the test game be4 he was "done" or what ever. and checked out most of the Old HCL modes an played sometimes be4 those things and naga were added, and publiched alot here on jimdo about my thughts of the map and back then as now i think it should be FvG (Orc-und Vs Hum-NE) the add of naga just made a 3rd party race part from all neutral heroes that was there alrdy.

And the fun factor for me was lost (when i more or less stoped playing fvg regulary, played maybe 1 game FvG 15-25 games HP just to get a feeling of whole wTc stoped when the Feeding started when you just attack and feed of the enemy forces untill you have godly armor and shit and can try killing illidan or simular shit, and the other team can't leave cuz of leaver-ban and so on, (mostly then admins !end-ed the games cuz it was alrdy done and no need to watch the other team with 15k more gold and 10 more levels get all elite/ulti units and items/heroes no point rellay the game was over why wait to end it?
Some said that was not the case for them like SiN and others, not just cuz they were the elite and mostly won, but somehow was lucky/ or able to kill the whole other team alone or just 2v5 so did not matter if the rest of the team went back to base just not to kill the other team.

anyway So that part of the gameplay i did not really like the feeding/and time consumeing for no reason. if the game was over its over ye?

Another thing i think "destroyed" FvG is the SG-mode ok if others like it but it's not FvG then anymore it's another map/game with FvG units and heroes IMO.
Long time since i played FvG honsetly but i still like it overall if balanced teams and not sg mode sure. So it's not that i h8 on the map just some things with it, and mostly the game-play that evolved.

-------------

1 thing that i totaly agree on is the -switch thing. it's totaly unessesary and makes for imba-teams when they get 2X buffs/auras and even can use "selfkill" spells (death Pact) on enemy units? i did not even know that was posible!? it never been in the rest of the wc3 so what strange remake/setning have compit made so you can use it on enemy units to insta-kill + heal? sounds like and epic ulti (like a remade Finger of pain spell but with heal (Finger of pain mostly insta killed most shit or removed like 75% hp on the other stuff that did not die )
+ how come potm starfall is "protected" vs silence/soul burn/aoe-stun spells/ singel target stun spells?? and only stopable with passive bash and net? sounds like a major fuck up or imba-abuse?

and finaly What do you mean that the KR is "BEASTS" ? if you mean that they are verry good at FvG or simular it's prob cuz they put down alota time into it and got free space to evolve into the best players. mostly back in the days wTc were the best players of our maps HP / FvG thats why-how you were able to join more or less. now the FvG elite part of wTc has kinda gone into ruins/shadows of its former self.

Sad but true only way to get back the elite role of the map is to keep training ourself and new members and recruit some of the koreans into wTc (maybe saka can help with those that don't speak english and loli if he feels up to it) cuz thats been the biggest problem outside the clan and ingame cuz koreans dont speak english and have had alot of problems with us cuz bans kicks and overall h8 towards them.
in HP we have fallen abit aswell tho not as far and the wTc can still claim to be the best tho not as strongly as be4, and beeing the best/elite don't mean you win/smash down the others all the time just cuz you can. it was like we had a secret knowlage of FvG&HP and there for were called haxers/cheaters/Makeing the maps just so we win, from outsiders eyes. Tho we had alota hands in makeing the maps and validated opinions over others in the makeing of them we never did it just for us it's for everyone tho it's still our maps and most of us came from the outside and joined. LOL feels like i got offtopic tho xD

-------

anyway just sokme thughts and sorry if hard to read, may remake the text later on and corret some miss-types and other fails i may have done :)
May The Force Be With You! & Have a wormTastic game!
wTc.Halolo wTc.Halolo
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Re: Thoughts: Development of "Footmen vs Grunts"

Hi Pale,

thanks for your detailed reply - that's what I wanted and want ;-)

Before: Yes, with "beasts" I mean their flawless (almost "perfect") way of playing. I hardly know any koreans that are just "not good" in FvG. These guys are MY real competition although I played about 1500 FvG games now (or even more? I dunno ...) - micro and macro-intense games like these keep me playing and "practicising" :-)

Yes the "siege"-mode is another negative example of the development. I'm glad that you'll have to collect about 8 votes to change it into sg mode but in earlier versions ppl tent to join the game just for playing some kind of "tower defense" in FvG-ish. Killing Illidian wasn't easy and was a fun thing tho, yes. But as you've mentioned the game still has to improve itself. A really good example is the time you're wasting even tho it's obvious that your team is losing. The "noob gold" (getting at <42,5% gain) is a really good answer to that, but the thing is that "noob gold" just lasts till the clock hits the 30min mark. After half an hour you wont get any noob gold - no matter if you have 42,5 or 5% gain. THIS is where Compit could think about imo, it would help to hold ppl ingame even after 30+ min played.

Yes, in earlier days it was like "beat atleast 2 wTc members in the enemy team and show that you can have what it takes to be in the clan" (~> skill, manner, understanding of the game [mechanics] etc.)
"Death Pact" is a normal (non-ultimate) skill from "Messenger of the Death" (Mannoroth-Hero) and is to be used on FRIENDLY undead units (that's what it is intended to tho). When beeing on Alliance with this hero you can sacrifise ("sell") ENEMY undead units, gain their hp and earn money. Ppl combine this with a flaming-cloak and other items such as periapt of vitality, shield of deathlord etc etc. => imba as fuck

• The "Anti Magic Potion"-Thing: Yes it is possible to be totally ilvulnerable to stunning spells when activated. AMP costs you 150g; a starfall even at lvl 1 can easily bring back the money spent and noone can rly do anything in earlier stages of the game (e.g. raider/bandits cost 1800 + 350g ensnare -- hf to effort till then).

Final words to our current members/philosophy in joining wTc: We shall get the majority of those koreans into wTc if possible. They are a very very good adition to our clan roster and can teach most of our guys some lessons ;-) But yes, i think we'll need a translator for that :D

---

I'm rly glad that whenever ppl think of "FvG" they associate it with "Clan wTc". I guess we should "already" be proud of that, but imho there's always enough space for improvements. Maybe we'll start collecting those ideas, issues but also new things and -possibilities to make the perfect version of Footmen vs Grunts.
// greetings, Halolo

Germany || CET || Playing FvG || Member since 2012
Sin Sin
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Re: Thoughts: Development of "Footmen vs Grunts"

In reply to this post by wTc.Halolo
Read my bold

<quote author="wTc.Halolo">
Hello members, hi compit,

in the following sentences I want to state my point of view on the modern FvG-games, typical tactics and behaviors and the lack of "fun".

About me

I play FvG for atleast 5-6 years now, know the "old" ones with the canon boats, 2(3?)tower at the shipyard, taverns in the middle of the map etc. etc.

Since I play the FvG Maps made by you (us) there have been some major changes that on the one hand improved gaming experience (e.g. new heroes, 5k+ items, snap goblins, advanced options such as camera adjustments etc.) but on the other hand led to ways of gaming that i.m.o. haven't anything to do to with the "feeling" that FvG should represent.

"Load-Codes" and "Naga" - downward spiral

Things were gettin worse when the whole "save/load"-codes were introduced in combination with the implementation of the naga-race. Slowly but surely the mapper(s) noticed that nagas were imba, made them cost (more) wood and that ppl played like 24/7 just to get up to 300? gold (which also made the game even more imbalanced yet from the very beginning of the game). Ppl somehow abused or even hacked the bot to benefit from more units/more gold/whatever.

Agreed

Losing the FvG-Feeling: "Whats it actually all about?" - FvG nowadays

The 'modern' FvG is known for being packed with a bunch of opportunities, referring to game modes, item- and hero-combinations. Nevertheless a few strategies have been established (you can count them on the fingers of your hands) that make me questioning if this is the "real" purpose of how FvG should be played nowadays. I mean FvG has become a heavily macro and micro based game paired with the -most important- right decision-making in terms of "what units/hero can counter strategy X best?", so that it's a) hard to get into the game as a newbie and b) to enjoy the complexity (and variety) that the game has to offer (= cuz you cant even experience since it's always the same).

In my opinion FvG nowadays lacks "fun" - the actual reason why I play such games in my free time. Of course: Whenever you're becoming "good" in a game you somehow 'scent the air' of a more competitive way of gaming (~ "pro-gmaing") but imo one shall not the most vital part of such games => fun

Well that's personal opinion, but i also agree with you. However just cause you say the game isn't fun, doesn't mean the game isn't fun. Ppl like playing fvg for many DIFFERENT reasons, such as friends/community/challenges/farming for OP heros and items or because they're just good at the game. What do you find "fun" about fvg? What you find fun could be boring for others. I personally played for alot of reasons, initially for friends who got me into wTc, then i met people who were better then me at FvG and i wanted to be the best, so that became my motivation for quite a while, then later on i released that wasn't important as i felt FvG wasn't as skill heavy as i thought (I kinda beat everyone and every strat that existed till i was pretty consistent with it) and moved onto more skill orientated games such as ladder. (Also alot of the old pros or the ones i looked up to quit which may have contributed to the skill loss in FvG).

Take home message, for me the "fun" was lost when old players/friends quit and playing against Koreans who were good but weren't as fun as the old players, as they always lamed and 2vs1/3vs1 you.


Again and again: The most common "tactics" used nowadays

• Potm/Harpy/Razor Mane Doctor + range such as archer, hippogrpyh, glaive thrower etc. [@Alliance]
• Skeleton Mage/Centaur Archer + "" [@Alliance and Horde]
• "Mass summons" ~> Summoner-Hero, Dark Ranger, Firelord, Archmage, etc.
• "Charming" heroes such as "dark ranger" -> ability to overtake units (Ultimate "Charme") + Couatl-Abuse (= overtake up to 6 Couatls + the X% chance to get the rebirth-rune to have 6+ 92-100dmg-couatls) [@Alliance and Horde]
• "Thrall"-Hero + grunts/orcish melee [@Horde]
• Dragonspawner + X [@Alliance and Horde]
• Lizard/Sludge Finger + X [@Alliance and Horde]

IMO hero choices and hence strats became rly limited i felt like it was due to the fact you could no longer sell items you got at the start ie pots/healing totems/invul pots. Because NOW to have a good start to carry your team, meant you needed a "OP" hero to push a lead. I used to always random my hero for fun or use fun units, but now to win you have to repeat the same strat everygame like the ones you kinda mentioned.

URGENT: bugs, abuses, things that are just imbalanced

• "Messenger of the Death" (Check pic) can use his "death pact" ability even when swapped to Alliance. So it's possible to "sacrifise" enemy units, heal up and even getting money from it. If you're clever you can even kill an abomination and get 80?+ gold from it.
• Dragon Spawner (Check pick): The 1/2/3 dragons that are spawned as his ultimate ability is way too good with his frost nova. Especially crowded archers can be (too) easily killed by 2x nova [1x hero itself + 1x ultimate]
• ppl gettin swapped - bloodlust/inner fire/war drums/bear-roar/etc. -ability: If someone switches from alliance to horde (<->) the race-specific spells can still be used. So Alliance can have inner fire, bear-roar and blood lust at once  (I thought this was fixed? I haven't played in a while, did compit change it back?)
• as mentioned above one tactic is to use "charme" on naga couatls from the creeps to not just get 6+ couatls throughout the ultimate-ability but also even more through the "Rune of Rebirth". So if you're (un-)lucky you'll have to face 10 couatls that can attack 3?4? units at once with an attack of 92-100 damage
• Goblin Sapper: commonly used when destroying (upgraded) towers yes, but if your tower is not upgraded you can lose your tower to 2?3? sapper. Imo this should be fixed (since they also cost just 100w)
• Anti Magic Potion: When you decide to go potm/sludge finger it's a vital part to have a anti magic potion with you when hitting lvl 6. You so can cast "starfall" without getting stunned/disabled by a spell (yes it's still doable via "bash"/"ensnare"/etc.). i m b a (Do speed scrolls still exist?)
• "Shapeshifter" (Acoloyte-Hero): Question - is it really intended that you can (also) cast ultimate-abilitys from a 'stolen' hero (such as starfall, death finger, burning sky, etc.)?
• "Final Hope": is a great and useful feature since units at later waves are just insanely strong (mentioned to be so?), but you can also kill enemy heroes with that. I'm refering to a game where I had a lvl 30? furion and my mate an archimonde at lvl 42. We lost the game because our heroes died and the enemy all-in -ed
____________

My posting should NOT be some kind of "whining/hating" or so but I really miss the good old times of playing some kind of "unburdened" and have FUN.

What are your thoughts?

P.S.: Am I the only one thinking that those koreans (no personal offense) are just BEASTS?!
wTc.Halolo wTc.Halolo
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Re: Thoughts: Development of "Footmen vs Grunts"

Hi Sin, thanks for your message. I rly appreciate it since we've also known each other quite good (didnt we?!  ) and I know that you are/were one of the "pro's" of wTc.

I still rly like playing FvG - it's the friend-things but also the "new" competition with those koreans etc. Though I dont get this "feeling" whenever I join a FvG that I had back in the days. Reason could indeed be that there are less (rly "good") wTc-member playing OUR map ... once in a while I see ppl with wTc-tag but I dont know their names and their skill-lvl (some kind of "are you worth being in clan wTc?!").

• Yes it is (again) possible to have spell from the opposite site on yours
• Yes speed scrolls still exist (150g)
• Yes, the "no -ar -heroes" - thing could also be an indicator for the lack of "fun" // ppl nowadays most commonly choose between one of those strats. It's just "boring"


Ofc these are just my personal thoughts but I wanted to share them with you to see if i'm the only one thinking this (out loud). I really like FvG and appreciate the whole work compit (and somehow "Dragon") 's put into mapping/bug-removing etc.
// greetings, Halolo

Germany || CET || Playing FvG || Member since 2012
Sin Sin
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Re: Thoughts: Development of "Footmen vs Grunts"

Yeaaaaaa

I'm just waiting till wc4 or if i can be bothered buying wc3 again or i can pirate a working copy to make my eventual comeback :)

I'm surprised wTc is still alive :P.
wTc.Halolo wTc.Halolo
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Re: Thoughts: Development of "Footmen vs Grunts"

I'll keep up the good work till then :-P
// greetings, Halolo

Germany || CET || Playing FvG || Member since 2012
wTc[JediMaster] wTc[JediMaster]
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Re: Thoughts: Development of "Footmen vs Grunts"

In reply to this post by Sin
Still alive?
haha ye ofc :) Like as if i'd allow the clan to die of ;)

indeed a 2nd come back would be nice :P somehow you still stands as Shamy here on jimdo xD slow update from compits side and me beeing unable to fix it :)
May The Force Be With You! & Have a wormTastic game!
Lovelylove Lovelylove
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Re: Thoughts: Development of "Footmen vs Grunts"

In reply to this post by wTc.Halolo
first of all, i must apologize about my bad english. cuz im korean (NOT alphabet region, not indo-european language region...) (so many people dont like us  :( )

nagas are strong, but not imba. they cost too much lumber(they are useful with slow poison, but that upgrade 500 lumber.) nagas are weapon of winner. if loser choose naga, that will be worst choice.


yeah. agree with your comments about common strat. but they have counters. no strats without counter strat i think.

1. mass summon/dragon = OH THANKS! DISPELL READY! (except mammoth hero... 5000 spell shield??)
2. charming hero : sure. couatls are strong, but they are just air unit. if someone pull them to ground with ensnare/web, they cant survive long.
3. thrall/skelly/centaur... : old-fashioned aura strat, but most hard to counter. if someone choose assassinate hero(snip, assasin etc), cut him fast as he can. or just fight with full strength.

---- we must think 'why that strats are using again and again??'. they are easy to use, but too powerful. many other heroes are hard to use, but didnt have enough power. ex) when i see centaur, i think 'oh damn, unholy? entangle? strong dam with searing??' but when i saw turtle, 'hmm.... why he choose her?' some heroes must be balanced. ----


'CAMPING' is most important problem in this game i think. fvg takes too long cuz that camping. losing guys dont want to go out, wining team dont want to go in. game stucks and use meaningless time.

to solve that problem, it should be more benefits who have center stone. in current version, team who have stone takes 20 gold, others have 10 gold. but camping in base can use strong aura and tower support. and noob-gold/dg makes gold. losers, campers take more benefit then attackers? that is weird, not balanced. if im in losing team, i dont want to go out and fight. just take noob-gold. but another problem-attackers camping in center must be solved too. so, i recommend 'benefits-in-rate system'. attackers who take center takes much benefit then defenders. but attackers didnt attack enemy base too long, benefit reduced.


and.... there is few more bug. when choose several unit/hero in 1 group, 1 guy hear my order very lately. so 2 meele hero strat is too hard to use. (in last version, that wasnt happen.) and furbolg hero's 8lv bloodlust buff cannot used to mechanical units (but can be used until 7lv spell.)

finally, i think reveals are too cheap. we can use semi-maphack with just 300 lumber. that must be nerf.
wTc.Halolo wTc.Halolo
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Re: Thoughts: Development of "Footmen vs Grunts"

Hi Lovely,

first of all: I can read all you've written ;-) for a korean player it's very good english, maybe you can try to ask other koreans to give a lil statement (e.g. when you're in the lobby, waiting for for the start)?!

Naga-race has received several changes over the last few versions. Imo it's fine now, although "Slow Poison" is still too strong(!).

Of course: Every strat has a more or less useful counter strategy. But you shouldnt forget that you do not know at the beginning if ppl tend to go mass units or (imba) hero X with unit Y. Ofc you can change your strategy later on but till then you've already spent thousands of gold, which has a huge impact in further decision-making (e.g. Enemy has summons => hero-change to priest -> 900g + lvling // => unit change to destroyer/spirit walker -> 2000g+).

I'm "d'accord" with you to try fixing those "time waste"-thing. Imo there is a mode ("fast forward" -ff), but I tried it once and my game crashed  . BUT i think that this is a good idea to deal with such a problem: e.g. you can get noob-gold till 30 min. Maybe we should think about a -ff -vote at 31 min. so that people MUST fight and bring action into the game.

"finally, i think reveals are too cheap. we can use semi-maphack with just 300 lumber. that must be nerf." -- No I think 300w is enough and balanced :-) ((in late-game you will notice that 300w are quite much))


Lovelylove wrote
losers, campers take more benefit then attackers? that is weird, not balanced. if im in losing team, i dont want to go out and fight. just take noob-gold.
The losing team does benefit until their gain has reached 42,5% again. But you and your team yourself should be interested in taking the fight again since -as you've mentioned- you just get +10 , the team having the stone gettin +20 gold. So there are (dis-)advantages available ...

+++++++++++++++

first of all, i must apologize about my bad english. cuz im korean (NOT alphabet region, not indo-european language region...) (so many people dont like us  :( )

nagas are strong, but not imba. they cost too much lumber(they are useful with slow poison, but that upgrade 500 lumber.) nagas are weapon of winner. if loser choose naga, that will be worst choice.


yeah. agree with your comments about common strat. but they have counters. no strats without counter strat i think.

1. mass summon/dragon = OH THANKS! DISPELL READY! (except mammoth hero... 5000 spell shield??)
2. charming hero : sure. couatls are strong, but they are just air unit. if someone pull them to ground with ensnare/web, they cant survive long.
3. thrall/skelly/centaur... : old-fashioned aura strat, but most hard to counter. if someone choose assassinate hero(snip, assasin etc), cut him fast as he can. or just fight with full strength.

---- we must think 'why that strats are using again and again??'. they are easy to use, but too powerful. many other heroes are hard to use, but didnt have enough power. ex) when i see centaur, i think 'oh damn, unholy? entangle? strong dam with searing??' but when i saw turtle, 'hmm.... why he choose her?' some heroes must be balanced. ----


'CAMPING' is most important problem in this game i think. fvg takes too long cuz that camping. losing guys dont want to go out, wining team dont want to go in. game stucks and use meaningless time.

to solve that problem, it should be more benefits who have center stone. in current version, team who have stone takes 20 gold, others have 10 gold. but camping in base can use strong aura and tower support. and noob-gold/dg makes gold. losers, campers take more benefit then attackers? that is weird, not balanced. if im in losing team, i dont want to go out and fight. just take noob-gold. but another problem-attackers camping in center must be solved too. so, i recommend 'benefits-in-rate system'. attackers who take center takes much benefit then defenders. but attackers didnt attack enemy base too long, benefit reduced.


and.... there is few more bug. when choose several unit/hero in 1 group, 1 guy hear my order very lately. so 2 meele hero strat is too hard to use. (in last version, that wasnt happen.) and furbolg hero's 8lv bloodlust buff cannot used to mechanical units (but can be used until 7lv spell.)

finally, i think reveals are too cheap. we can use semi-maphack with just 300 lumber. that must be nerf.

// greetings, Halolo

Germany || CET || Playing FvG || Member since 2012
Lovelylove Lovelylove
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Re: Thoughts: Development of "Footmen vs Grunts"

1. sure. dispell units are quite expensive. but they can earn more money from that summoned thing, and they can use other useful spells. most of all, 1 dispell makes 1 player useless.(we use money, but HE USE MONEY TOO-summon upgrade is quite expensive XD) so, summon strat is bad i think. (except few immune-critter, elephant with spell-shield.)

2. if we cant change reveal price, we can change effect of that. shorter time, lower range etc. i think that OP reveal makes camping. 'oh, i see that STRONG army, i cant beat them.' or 'hmm if they start hunting, we can beat their back. dont need to attack now'.... etc. and more strategic choice like flanking/surprise attack cannot be used cuz that reveal.
wTc.Halolo wTc.Halolo
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Re: Thoughts: Development of "Footmen vs Grunts"

imo before we get into detailed (new) changes discussion, we shall talk about the things I mentioned earlier in the beginning of my topic
// greetings, Halolo

Germany || CET || Playing FvG || Member since 2012
wTc[JediMaster] wTc[JediMaster]
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Re: Thoughts: Development of "Footmen vs Grunts"

Yo you gota try playing with my modes tho :D best setup imo:
!HCL 29AB
instant spawn - no legendarys - shared income - AR no repick/sell
May The Force Be With You! & Have a wormTastic game!
wTc.Halolo wTc.Halolo
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Re: Thoughts: Development of "Footmen vs Grunts"

I'd probably set my new games to "-ar" , yes :-O

For now i'm waiting compit to answer, I think he can be 'enlightend' ;-))
// greetings, Halolo

Germany || CET || Playing FvG || Member since 2012
Compit Compit
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Re: Thoughts: Development of "Footmen vs Grunts"

Load-Codes: I removed them in 4.0

Naga Race: Imo they are good now. As Lovelylove said, it depends on who plays.

Old vs new FvG: If a game becomes "popular" it becomes more competitive and you can't play as thoughtless as you did before (because everybody wants to win). Some people prefer competetion over goofing around and have a different understanding of fun.
To fix this issue a gain-based income + low bounty could fix it. "Feeder" don't matter and have less influence on the team. This could even solve the camping problem. This is just an idea, doesnmt mean i am gonna add it.

Removing Furion, Archimonde, Wizard, Naga's Secret could relieve some pressure, stop the compulsion to get them.

Tactics:
Range-tech units (+ hero)
Melee-tech units (+ hero)
Mass Heroes
Single Hero
Summons

This are the most common and simple tactics. Range-tech units is the easiest tactic, but not the most powerful. You can mix as you wish to create something better. e.g. melee-tech beats range-tech.
Your "tactics" are hero + units. It's FvG/Wc3 basic.
@Sin: A hero is no need to for a good start. The item-selling has been compensated by the gold coins.

Bugs:
Death Pact: Forgot to fix it for Messenger of Death. Fixed.
Dragon Spawner: Powerful. Op? Idk. HP has been reduced from 3k to 2k.
Switch: Bloodlust/Drums and Inner Fire/Roar is stucked at level 1. It can't be upgraded, the bonus is small. Ofc it is imba, a player switched the teams. Making it 6vs4 if you consider the leaver gold.
Sapper: Imo they are fine.
AMP: You can still retreat.
Shapeshifter: Yes.
Final Hope: Only in -sg. To counter the effect buy an ankh. Damage vs player units will be reduced.
Bloodlust: Fixed.

Main problem:
Camping: I don't think the weaker team would attack (the stone) even if they know that the other team grows stronger the longer they wait.
Benefiting the stronger team to attack the enemy base is easier/better than encourage the weaker team to take the stone.
The 'benefits-in-rate system' could be a good idea. I gotta think about it.
Lack of strategies: Imo its not that alert-ing. If the camping problem is solved and ther are no legendaries, there is room for fun strategies to try.

Other
Noob Gold 30+min we can try that.
GIVE ME COOOOOOOOOOOKIES!!!!! HAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWRRRRRRRRRRR >>>:-(
Compit Compit
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Re: Thoughts: Development of "Footmen vs Grunts"

Changes @ max level
Bloodlust 30% -> 25%
Inner Fire 25% -> 20%
War Drums 40% -> 30%
Roar 50% -> 35%
Trueshot + Command Aura 45% -> 40%, Items 15% -> 10%
Devotion Aura Bandit Lords 11 -> 8, Item 8 -> 6
Renunciation Aura Abos -9 -> -7
Unholy Aura 80% -> 55%, Item 25% -> 20%, Naga 15% -> 25%
Endurance Aura 25%/45% -> 24%/32%

Furion 15k -> 45k
Archi 12k -> 36k

Noob Gold 30m -> 45m

Keeper of the Weed removed

Nagas' Secret disabled via hcl
GIVE ME COOOOOOOOOOOKIES!!!!! HAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWRRRRRRRRRRR >>>:-(
wTc.Halolo wTc.Halolo
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Re: Thoughts: Development of "Footmen vs Grunts"

Hi Compit,

thanks for your reply. I will also answer you in detail, but gimme some time :-)

---
other topic: Can you please post me the actual (hcl-) admin commands? Also I got myself a list of spells that stack and not stack - this is up to date?

GAME MODES

"i" instant
"s" sharedbounty
"b" strongunits
"x" xtragold
"r" allrandom
"c" classicmode
"u" noultimate
"g" goldfactor
"m" mb
"l" levellimit
"h" coll
"n" naga
"z" highbounty
"y" norevive
"t" notowerupgrade
"f" feedmode
"k" noobmode


______MODI______

HCL:
1 = "Units don't collide with each other."
2 = "50% of your bounty is shared among your team."
3 = "All players know naga's secret"
4 = "Unit-maximum is doubled."
5 = "You get gold if your unit dies in battle."
6 = "You heroes don't revive."
7 = "You can't upgrade your towers."
8 = "Your gold is doubled."
9 = "Heroes are limited to level 18."
0 = "The weaker team receives a 1000 gold bonus every 180 seconds."
a = "Furion, Archimondis, Wizard, Infernal, Admirals, Secret Shop, Ward Shop and Illidan are disabled."
b = "You can't use your Advanced Death Tower."
c = "Triggers a vote for the spawn-rate."
d = "Triggers a vote for the bounty-factor."
e = "Spells have no cooldown."
f = "Enables the Siege Gamemode."
g = "Your units spawn only 1 time as a group, no periodical spawn."


____ADMIN____

Game Commands:
!stats [name]
       
Display basic player statistics, optionally add [name] to display statistics for another player
!statsdota [name]
       
Display DotA player statistics, optionally add [name] to display statistics for another player
Admin Commands:
!priv [name]
       
Host a private game
!pub [name]
       
Host a public game
!unhost
       
Unhost the current game
!swap [s1] [s2]
       
Swap slots
!start [force]
       
Start game, optionally add [force] to skip checks
!ping [number]
       
Ping players, optionally add [number] to kick players with ping above [number]
!close [number]
       
Close slot
!Open [number]
       
Open slot
!ban [name] [reason]
       
Permabans [name] for [reason].
!kick [partial name]
       
Kick [partial name] from game.



bear-roar / ancient-roar stack.
bear-roar / scroll-roar didnt stack.
bear-roar / furion-roar stack.
furion-roar / ancient-roar didnt stack.
furion-roar / scroll-roar stack.
ancient-roar / scroll-roar stack.

ultimate-warlock-roar is same with ancient-roar.
// greetings, Halolo

Germany || CET || Playing FvG || Member since 2012
Compit Compit
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Re: Thoughts: Development of "Footmen vs Grunts"

http://fvg.jimdo.com/hcl-codes/

If the stack-list is copied from my old post it is up-to-date, can't find it.
GIVE ME COOOOOOOOOOOKIES!!!!! HAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWRRRRRRRRRRR >>>:-(
Sin Sin
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Re: Thoughts: Development of "Footmen vs Grunts"

In reply to this post by Compit
It depends on heros for whether you need them.

 But its whatever, noone else has seems to have a problem/care, probably not important.

Melee
"e.g. melee-tech beats range-tech"
Um, only if you get fed and that will only happen if you're vsing a retard team which you could win against with any build/strat anyway.

And i don't like the proposed nerfs to bandit lords and abos, everthing else seems reasonable. Especially roar/drums/unholy. Bears offer so much for a 1.8k melee unit compared to raiders/bandits.

And why are we making it harder to close out games? 45k? archi?
wTc[JediMaster] wTc[JediMaster]
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Re: Thoughts: Development of "Footmen vs Grunts"

In reply to this post by Compit
Cost of Archi & Furi - Think thats abit toomtuch maybe 25k on archi and 34-36k on furi? cuz seems to be you sould still be able to save for them without alrdy have won the game, and to save all that without alrdy haveing won or playing uber-late game :P or am i wrong will you be able to use them at all? cuz at level 1-6 without tomes/items they are verry weak, archi epic 1 man army and furi ultra suport fellow. humm?
May The Force Be With You! & Have a wormTastic game!
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